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The following idea has been copied over the years by many scholars but it original authorship has been attributed to the writings of and lectures of Alexander Tytler a professor (1745-1813). It is interesting that so many academics have tried to "own" this idea and they so heartily agree with Tytler. (Remember America is not a democracy and that it is often called rule by majority or "mob rule".)

Tytler s believed that a democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world s greatest civilizations has been 200 years.

Bondage to Spiritual Faith;
Spiritual Faith to Courage;
Courage to Freedom;
Freedom to Abundance;
Abundance to Selfishness;
Selfishness to Complacency;
Complacency to Apathy;
Apathy to Fear;
Fear to Dependency;
Dependency to Bondage

A democracy as you all know is a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives : capitalism and democracy are ascendant in the third world.

• a state governed in such a way : a multiparty democracy.
• control of an organization or group by the majority of its members : the intended extension of industrial democracy.
• the practice or principles of social equality : demands for greater democracy.

American s form of government is not a democracy; it is a constitutional republic. A republic is a state in which supreme power is held by the people and their elected representatives, and which has an elected or nominated president rather than a monarch.
• archaic figurative a community or group with a certain equality between its members.

Benjamin Frankiln said this: - A democracy is two wolves and a small lamb voting on what to have for dinner. Freedom under a constitutional republic is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.

A constitutional republic only works only if the constitution is maintained in tact and followed. That is the problem with the current Obama administration and former administrations...they have "bent" the constitution to their whims and so diluting and overstepping their powers set forth in the constitution. This is a left wing Congress who are "selling" our freedoms for their leftist socialist pafacist ideologies....and so the down fall of America and it's progression looks very much like Tytler's insightful progression.


of our but a republic.

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I have often wondered what the founding fathers would say when they look at the voter turnout for recent elections. There was a time when the voting population was in line with the adult population. Nowadays we say "did you vote?" before we continue with questions along that line. Our society has become so jaded, dare I say blinded, that many don't even consider voting a necessity. The proof is in how many young persons would trade their right to vote for monetary considerations. People forget that the right to vote was THE impetus to gain our independence from GB way back in the day. Not slavery, oil, jobs, etc. The right to vote. We need to get back to basics. That means no to big government. It means no to Socialized Medicine for sure. It means using your right to vote.

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Great post. Although when you were listing quotes you forgot one that is quite fitting. "We must be ready to dare all for our country. For history does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. We must acquire proficiency in defense and display stamina in purpose.
We must be willing, individually and as a Nation, to accept whatever sacrifices may be required of us. A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both."-Dwight D. Eisenhower. I would give up my Liberty for nothing in this universe. Nothing at all.

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Great forum! I am sure you will get a good coversation flowing.
Benjamin Franklin thought even a life wasn't worth giving up freedom for- "Any society that would give up liberty for security will deserve neither and lose both." That is exactly what this government is doing. They are using scare tactics to make us willingly give up our freedom. If you don't support this, the terrorist win. I fyou don't support this, we'll all be unemployed. If you don't support this, you'll die. This is why almost every constitutional right we have is under attack. It isn't a Republican or a Democrat thing- they all use the same rhetoric- fear. When someone says that freedom shouldn't have a price at all, they're excluded from the conversation. Why? Because it makes too much sense and may convert the ones that are motivated by fear.
-Danielle

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Don't totally agree with you, but that was still a fine anwser. Thank You

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Had so many quotes I wanted to post. The following are JUST from Jefferson, the supposed founder of the modern Democrat Party:
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."

"A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government. "

"Dependence begets subservience and venality, suffocates the germ of virtue, and prepares fit tools for the designs of ambition."

"History, in general, only informs us of what bad government is."

"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

" I own that I am not a friend to a very energetic government. It is always oppressive."

" It behooves every man who values liberty of conscience for himself, to resist invasions of it in the case of others: or their case may, by change of circumstances, become his own. "

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I would not give my liberty for anything. I would die for my liberty and will keep it that way... forever!

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"If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for the law. It invites every man to become a law unto himself. It invites anarchy."-U.S. Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis

"Where the people fear the government you have tyranny. Where the government fears the people you have liberty."-John Basil Barnhill

"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power, than by violent and sudden usurpations"-James Madison

"Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government."-James Madison

"The problem to be solved is, not what form of government is perfect, but which of the forms is least imperfect."-James Madison

"Giving money and power to Government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys."-P. J. O'Rourke

"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests."-Patrick Henry

"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be."-Thomas Jefferson

"Be thankful we're not getting all the government we're paying for."-Will Rogers

Plenty more but these work. And thiose quotes you gave were good. Although my favorite istill. "The problem with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, it's that they know so much that isn't so."-Ronald Reagan

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What I find very interesting is these axioms reverberate now as loudly as they did almost 300 years ago. So many in our society want to get away from the lessons taught back then. They cite living in a different era necessitates the switch. The second amendment is just one thing always under attack. People today are no different than any peoples that have ever lived. They want the chance to live their lifes as they see fit. They want to have a say in what happens in their communities. They want to know this country will still be there for their children and their childrens children. Those kind of things do not and will not change. We may have ipods, the internet, velcro and whatever other innovations come down the pipe. At the end of the day our core wants and needs will not change. That all starts with our liberty.

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agreed! material things or might I quote stephen king and say "needful things?"

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Absolutely correct. As I've pointed out a number of times on this site, it's very amusing how many conservatives now invoke the Constitution in protest over Obama's policies, but so many walked in lockstep with Bush as he gangfucked the rule of law again and again. Also ironic of course, are so many liberals who were so critical of Bush's policies, but are now perfectly happy when Obama has continued many of the same policies.

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I'll take that as a compliment, thank you very much. :)

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This is really the making of a whole new forum, but let's stipulate that the Patriot Act is fundamentally flawed. I think some of the provisions are necessary. What in particular do you, as a libertarian, find to be egregious about it? Not trying to be a smartass or anything, would like to hear detail as opposed to the same old saw ' Our freedom went out the window with the patriot act'.

you've said before (paraphrasing) that it did no good to endow the government with wartime powers that were either ambiguous or violations of our rights; you may very well not support giving any of those tools to the Federal government, that is understandable. Would you mind giving me a brief clarifacation?

It still doesn't change what Obama's doing to the country, and I am annoyed at the left obfuscating and diverting away from that with what happened almost a decade ago. Obama's usurpations are much larger than Bush's, and we are only 6 months in.

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