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Politicar 5 months ago
Reply to Jeremy86
I don't necessarily disagree, actually...hate crime legislation is an issue I'm generally conflicted … Show full comment
I don't necessarily disagree, actually...hate crime legislation is an issue I'm generally conflicted … Show full comment
I was not saying what I seemed to be saying to you.
Whether intended or not Hate Crimes Legislation inherently establishes Inequality Under the Law by establishing that it is worse to murder this person than that person.
To quote myself:
"More Thought Police legislation.
"... that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, ..."
- Thomas Jefferson from the letter to Nehemiah Dodge and others of the Danbury Baptist Association; 1 Jan 1802.
"He murdered, that is all that matters. Legislation of this nature is a violation of the principle of Equality under the Law in that it establishes that certain citizens are more valuable than other citizens, and that the murder of one of the "protected" classes is to be punished more severely than a murder committed against a member of a non-protected class. State enforced discrimination."
Politicar 5 months ago
Reply to Jeremy86
Hate crime legislation isn't based on the idea that harming a particular ethnicity, gender, etc is w … Show full comment
Hate crime legislation isn't based on the idea that harming a particular ethnicity, gender, etc is w … Show full comment
That's fine in theory ... but it does not work that way in the real world. Back in the 1990's in the area of Pennsylvania, Ohio or such a Black man murdered a series of white people after telling family (or a friend) that he was going to go kill some white people.
They refused to prosecute him under hate crimes legislation because they were not certain that his sole motive was hatred.
In the James Byrd case it did not matter at all that Byrd was not murdered solely for reasons of hate: his murderers were prosecuted under hate crimes legislation. (FYI: A witness [who happened to be Black] testified at the trial that Byrd was murdered because he owed the murderers money)
That is Inequality Under the Law.
Hate is irrelevant. Crime is. Frankly, I don't give a rat's arse if someone murdered me because I was white, Choctaw or because he wanted my pants: I'm just as dead either way. Dead is dead. Dead is what matters.
Politicar 5 months ago
Reply to Good Ole Boy
Some folks will not understand or care of equality under law. To them something special is deserved … Show full comment
Some folks will not understand or care of equality under law. To them something special is deserved … Show full comment
You are correct. Most will not care a whit about Equality Under the Law. Well, until they get bitten by the Inequality Under the Law that they helped create.
Life is getting cheaper.
Good Ole Boy (Republican) - 5 months ago
Reply to Jeremy86
I don't necessarily disagree, actually...hate crime legislation is an issue I'm generally conflicted … Show full comment
I don't necessarily disagree, actually...hate crime legislation is an issue I'm generally conflicted … Show full comment
They are unconstitutional is the problem, if you see a problem with the sentences make them tougher across the board. Favoring certain situations is unequal treatment.
Jeremy86 (Democratic) - 5 months ago
Reply to lawandorder
Right on all points. I would only add that Jeremy86 and the all the backers of this bill are seriou … Show full comment
Right on all points. I would only add that Jeremy86 and the all the backers of this bill are seriou … Show full comment
I don't necessarily disagree, actually...hate crime legislation is an issue I'm generally conflicted on. But there were some comments that seemed to suggest that hate crime legislation is specifically designed to favor specific races, gender, etc when that isn't really the case. It's just designed to prosecute hate crimes in a harsher or, at least, more specific way, for better or worse.
lawandorder (Republican) - 5 months ago
Reply to ironhead
There are no two ways about it: hate crime legislation is thought-crime legislation. Listen, I de … Show full comment
There are no two ways about it: hate crime legislation is thought-crime legislation. Listen, I de … Show full comment
Right on all points. I would only add that Jeremy86 and the all the backers of this bill are seriously mistaken if they believe that a hate crimes bill will reduce these types of crimes. In fact, given that these crimes are motivated by irrational hate - not based on any conduct of the victim, unlike a crime of passion, which is still a crime but driven by some conduct of the victim - these hate crimes will not be deterred by any type of legislation. Deterrance occurs when one makes a rational choice not to act because of the potential consequences.
Patriot Watch (Independent) - 5 months ago
Politics.com great feature pic as usual. Who ever does that cutting and pasting does a great job
Good Ole Boy (Republican) - 5 months ago
Reply to Jeremy86
Hate crime legislation isn't based on the idea that harming a particular ethnicity, gender, etc is w … Show full comment
Hate crime legislation isn't based on the idea that harming a particular ethnicity, gender, etc is w … Show full comment
Unconstitutional however you put it, Just as sensible as making a race a master race.
amnestymyazz 5 months ago
Reply to ironhead
There are no two ways about it: hate crime legislation is thought-crime legislation. Listen, I de … Show full comment
There are no two ways about it: hate crime legislation is thought-crime legislation. Listen, I de … Show full comment
I agree totally. Advocates will say the law is designed to do this or designed to do that. However at the end of the day it does what it does, regardless of intent.
ironhead (Libertarian) - 5 months ago
There are no two ways about it: hate crime legislation is thought-crime legislation.
Listen, I detest homophobia, racism, etc. - but this is my moral judgment. The violation of the law is when someone s rights are violated (ie - assault, rape, murder, robbery, etc). The motivation of the criminal is virtually impossible to ascertain. Hate crime legislation might sound good to some, because they think that it will deter hatred, bigotry, etc. - but it will not. Like bco2rgr said, the severity of the crime should also be a factor, but the motivation should not.
For example, why should the law punish a racist murderer more than someone who murdered their spouse because they cheated on them? The law cannot engage in this type of moral judgment, neither can the state.
These types of laws are a slippery slope towards thought crimes, and liberals should be afraid of that (as should everyone).
Oh and one other thing, the argument that motive is used already in trials is not the same thing. Motive in the murder of a gay man might be established for the accused who is an avowed homophobe, but this is only one piece of the puzzle. The evidence that might convict them will be physical evidence, such as fingerprints, DNA, etc.
Jeremy86 (Democratic) - 5 months ago
Hate crime legislation isn't based on the idea that harming a particular ethnicity, gender, etc is worse than harming other ones. It just factors in whether the crime was specifically motivated by that kind of hate. In other words, a bigoted black person harming a white person specifically because of race would presumably also be convicted of a hate crime (though such a circumstance would be rarer to begin with). The idea, whether right or wrong, is simply to try and put extra emphasis on stopping such hate on a larger societal level, and to prevent it from creating violence.
bco2rgr (Republican) - 5 months ago
Seriously? Does it matter who it happened to? If someone is assaulted it s assault, if they are killed it is murdered and if they are robbed it is robbery. This bill if passed is completely unconstitutional and in violation of numerous amendments and the bill of rights.
Crime is crime and everyone should be punished equally based on the severity of the crime and the person past criminal history plain and simple that is it.
Politicmaniacs6 5 months ago
Finally.
Does it really matter what color or what sexual orientation you are? Apparently it does.
See, this is the kind of biggotry that goes around in our country because people cant except that other people are different. This is also how religion goes to your head. They start when you are a child, and push it on you. They make you scared so you would believe them and give money to "god". They want everyone to believe them so all people will think the same.
Good Ole Boy (Republican) - 5 months ago
Reply to Politicar
More Thought Police legislation. "... that the legislative powers of government reach action … Show full comment
More Thought Police legislation. "... that the legislative powers of government reach action … Show full comment
Some folks will not understand or care of equality under law. To them something special is deserved in "hate crimes". I say make the sentences for all murders stiffer. A woman in Illinois got out in 3 years after drowning her kids, I know of a guy who killed a man in a botched kidnapping and got out in 7 years. Life is cheap now.
Politicar 5 months ago
More Thought Police legislation.
"... that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, ..."
- Thomas Jefferson from the letter to Nehemiah Dodge and others of the Danbury Baptist Association; 1 Jan 1802.
He murdered, that is all that matters. Legislation of this nature is a violation of the principle of Equality under the Law in that it establishes that certain citizens are more valuable than other citizens, and that the murder of one of the "protected" classes is to be punished more severely than a murder committed against a member of a non-protected class. State enforced discrimination.
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