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panajachel's Blog

Name one thing good B.O. has done for America so far?

How long can America run on Obamas Kool-aid

Visit panajachel's Blog | 9 months ago

I asked last time, name one good thing Obama has done for America., I got no answer.

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Jeremy86 (Democratic) - 9 months ago

On the issue of Holdren's writings:

http://scienceblogs.com/bioephemera/2009/07/description_misrepresented_as.php

(And to be fair, here's a separate blog that argues the original premise that Holdren supports forced sterilizations, etc.: http://moneyrunner.blogspot.com/2009/07/john-holdren-obamas-science-czar-says.html)

It seems Holdren was never entirely advocating these methods to begin with...they were part of a textbook, and a larger discussion of entirely HYPOTHETICAL solutions, as opposed to something he was personally advocating. It was part of a larger discussion, something that is part of what scientists do. And in any case, as one of the many hypothetical solutions, it was almost assuredly a product of it's time...Holdren hasn't written anything to the effect of forced sterilizations since the 1970s, nor would it exactly be realistic to expect him to advocate it now in 2009.

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Jeremy86 (Democratic) - 9 months ago

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Reply to Teikiatsu
You can't dodge the premise of the story, that socialism fails wherever it is tried because people w … Show full comment

It's entirely possible to argue a true or otherwise valid point badly. That's what the story does. It starts from a flawed premise and uses faulty logic and unrealistic and false scenarios and character behaviors (hell, any semi-accomplished fiction writer could tell you that!) and thus undermines its point. If the original writer wanted to make their point, they should have gotten someone with some sense of logic and writing skill to make the point for them.

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panajachel 9 months ago

Teikiatsu, Thank you that is so truth.

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Teikiatsu (Independent) - 9 months ago

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Reply to Jeremy86
Snopes and that professor together prove quite well that the story is false, as does basic logic. P … Show full comment

You can't dodge the premise of the story, that socialism fails wherever it is tried because people will lean on the producers until there is nothing left to lean on. THAT is logic.

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amnestymyazz 9 months ago

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Reply to Jeremy86
Snopes and that professor together prove quite well that the story is false, as does basic logic. P … Show full comment

The entire story may well be false. I'll play devils advocate and say it is. But it RINGS TRUE. That is why it endures.

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Jeremy86 (Democratic) - 9 months ago

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Reply to Teikiatsu
Can you prove something like it never happened? Can you prove that the main point behind the conclu … Show full comment

Snopes and that professor together prove quite well that the story is false, as does basic logic. Personally, I can tell you that having educators as parents, any teacher that did what the one in that story did would be fired pretty quickly. This is just one of those dumb chain e-mails that gets spread around for years with the details changed to suit whatever current point they want to make.

If one wants to make a point about socialism or anything else, they have to use a realistic example to make that point, or lost credibility completely. That entire story rings false.

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Teikiatsu (Independent) - 9 months ago

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Reply to Jeremy86
Incidentally: http://dailymull.com/1371/The-Tale-of-the-Economics-Professor Take a few minutes … Show full comment

Can you prove something like it never happened?
Can you prove that the main point behind the conclusion of the story is false?

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hepsy 9 months ago

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Reply to Jeremy86
Connecting eugenics to electronic records isn't simplicity. It's actually quite convoluted. Acce … Show full comment

Amnestymyazz is right about simply connecting the dots, a logical progression. A lot of people don t know how to connect the dots of full moon and jellyfish. Just because some don't know their direct connection, doesn't mean there isn't one.
Same idea is applicable to medical records and eugenics.

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Jeremy86 (Democratic) - 9 months ago

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Reply to Patriot Watch
never past anything off as fact. Theres a point to the story. it's called human behavior

Incidentally:

http://dailymull.com/1371/The-Tale-of-the-Economics-Professor

Take a few minutes and read that whole thing, five pages. This ACTUAL professor, who himself has conducted grading experiments, completely debunks that e-mail story, including its logic and characterization of "human nature."

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amnestymyazz 9 months ago

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Reply to Jeremy86
Connecting eugenics to electronic records isn't simplicity. It's actually quite convoluted. Acce … Show full comment

BTW- By simplicity I am not referring to security or technology. I am simply connecting the dots. It is a logical progression.

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amnestymyazz 9 months ago

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Reply to Jeremy86
Connecting eugenics to electronic records isn't simplicity. It's actually quite convoluted. Acce … Show full comment

Again back to Murphy. Authority, legality, or level of access are not my point. You crystallize what my point is. People are already doing it themselves. It's a matter of record. If that info is online, the insurance companies will find their way to it. One need not use information directly to exploit it. These battles will ultimately find their way into a courtroom. However it is my belief they will not do so due to misappropriation by the insurance companies. The battle will not be how they got it. The battle will be whether or not their use of it was within legal boundaries. Just my opinion.

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Jeremy86 (Democratic) - 9 months ago

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The older you get Jeremy the more you will see the true brilliance in simplicity. You will underst … Show full comment

Connecting eugenics to electronic records isn't simplicity. It's actually quite convoluted.

Access to information does not automatically equate to authority over that information or over what to do with it. The insurance companies, IMO, have been given far too much power in this country, but they also are quite far from having the power to rule who can reproduce and who can't, and what kind of child they're allowed to have. That's a very basic biological human thing that they can't control. What they can already control is who gets coverage and who doesn't - but, that doesn't equate to eugenics.

It is my belief that if we see eugenics borne out (and I actually do think we will on some small level at least), it will be by choice of individuals. Already we have people trying to control why kind of "traits" their children will have and research moving in that direction as well. And groups trying to identify and, ultimately, "cure" certain genetic differences (autism, homosexuality, etc.) are moving us in that direction as well. What I don't think is that it will come from any authoritarian place. It's something people are doing to themselves.

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amnestymyazz 9 months ago

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Reply to Jeremy86
I know what eugenics is, but I find the oft-suggested (by World Net Daily, Infowars, et al) connecti … Show full comment

The older you get Jeremy the more you will see the true brilliance in simplicity. You will understand the most basic law of life. Murphy's Law. If it can go wrong, it will go wrong. You will see the day that a eugenics scenario plays out. Why? Our records are going on-line. Someday. Period. The insurance companies want it. They will get what they want. That is why eugenics will happen. Insurance companies will want it. Just my opinion.

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amnestymyazz 9 months ago

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Reply to hepsy
You re probably an alcoholic if you go to AA meetings. If not, you could just be drunk on Kool Aid … Show full comment

I just wanted to make sure:)

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amnestymyazz 9 months ago

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Reply to Jeremy86
I definitely know that, that's how websites work. But a specific network can still be secured in … Show full comment

There is a huge difference when you compare hacking vs physically taking a document. The main one is if you hack someones records, you are probably gaining access to millions of records. Grabbing someones actual hard-copy records will inherently grant you access to much less information. Saying that hard-copy records can be stolen so storing records electronically is only equally risky? Poor argument and false.

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amnestymyazz 9 months ago

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Reply to Jeremy86
Wait, since when are all electronic records inherently online? They can be shared among computer sy … Show full comment

My point is that I do not trust the government to make them as secure as they need to be. I do not think I ever will.

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Patriot Watch (Independent) - 9 months ago

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That you dishonestly passed off as fact a story that probably never happened at all? Seems simple t … Show full comment

never past anything off as fact. Theres a point to the story. it's called human behavior

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Jeremy86 (Democratic) - 9 months ago

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so whats the point?

That you dishonestly passed off as fact a story that probably never happened at all? Seems simple to me.

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Patriot Watch (Independent) - 9 months ago

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That's an apparently very old story that gets passed around in e-mails, with various details changed … Show full comment

so whats the point?

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Teikiatsu (Independent) - 9 months ago

Name one good thing? I'll name three.

He's so overreaching and arrogant in what he is doing that the country is starting to wake up, pay attention to their government, and read their Constitution.

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Jeremy86 (Democratic) - 9 months ago

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Reply to hepsy
Then read what he's written.

I have read some of it, and I'm familiar with his general stances. I don't agree with his ideas (suggested decades ago and, from what I can find, not since the 1970s) of forced sterilization and whatnot, but they didn't amount to eugenics. The two are separate things, and he was talking about more universal population control.

He was a concerned scientist writing about an issue that worried him, nothing more. Again I don't agree with his actual ideas per se but he was very much correct that our rapid explosion of population growth is troubling.

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hepsy 9 months ago

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Reply to Jeremy86
What, pray tell, am I not "supposed" to know? His writings are publicly available and eas … Show full comment

Then read what he's written.

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Jeremy86 (Democratic) - 9 months ago

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Then you know what you re supposed to know. You could learn more by reading what he's written. Show full comment

What, pray tell, am I not "supposed" to know? His writings are publicly available and easily accessible.

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hepsy 9 months ago

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When did I ever suggest that I like eugenics? I don't! I even mentioned specific examples I have t … Show full comment

Then you know what you re supposed to know.
You could learn more by reading what he's written.

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Jeremy86 (Democratic) - 9 months ago

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Reply to hepsy
I have no information from the sites you name. I am initially aware from a historical perspective th … Show full comment

When did I ever suggest that I like eugenics? I don't! I even mentioned specific examples I have trouble with!

Holdren never promoted eugenics. He has promoted - in statements he hasn't appeared to repeat or promote in decades - general population control, which isn't the same thing. I don't agree with his statements, but he did have a point in that our continually rising population is ultimately unsustainable. In any case, they don't amount to "eugenics," which is a different beast. Saying that the population growth itself should be lowered and suggesting that infants should be selected based on whether they have "undesirable" traits are entirely different things.

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