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Rosette Time

"I'll get off my soap box, If you get of your dirty box!"

Safer with the Patriot Act? (Rambling complaint)

Visit Rosetteismyname's Blog | 1 year ago
Someone stated, "of course after 9/11, we all wanted to give the government free reign to investigate and question anyone and anything." I am in no way a part of that 'everyone'. In many political blogs I have read or conversations I've had, statements like this have been said. I disagree. Of course, I wanted someone to get caught and go to jail but by no means 'anyone' or 'anything.' I didn't believe in the government then, especially not now. If I wanted anything for the government to do, it was to stop the murdering of people living in the United States because they were of Arab descent. I wanted kids to not to get beat up at school because of their skin tone. Wanting protection at the expense of freedom is no way of the American life at all. The rest of the global world, call the United States of America, 'the free world.' We are anything, but free. Benjamin Franklin says, "They that give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Both John McCain and Barack Obama voted for the renewal of the Patriot Act. That individual also stated, "he may have actually believed a strong central government, with strong powers, was essential in such times to protect us from danger." I disagree. This is beyond outrageous. Never have a centralized government. Who is to declare when people are no longer in danger? Also, "essential in such times to protect us from danger." No, all times are essential. Freedoms are essential and we should have the same and fair opportunities to live a free life as others have before us. Warrant-less wiretapping is not okay. Mail tampering is not okay. The Patriot Act will not stop terrorism. They are not terrorist in their minds; to themselves they are freedom fighters. Look at our history that we have studied in this classroom. The Magna Carta, Mayflower Compact, and The Declaration of Independence are documents that show that liberty does not die. These terrorists fight for liberty. No law can stop them in their tracks. So, can we expect for our freedoms to just return? Before answering this, what great legislation has occurred while the people just sat around to wait for politicians to pull a rabbit out of a hat? Women's right to vote? no. The voting rights act? (removed literacy tests and other barriers for blacks to vote) no George Bush said, "You are either with us or you are with the terrorists." Can anyone say loaded question? Scare tactics? I didn't buy into this then; I am not buying into it now. Media addressing our concerns for us by telling us that we should be concerned about Paris Hilton going to jail instead of Senate Bill 1959. No, I am not a part of that 'everyone' and I don't understand how many parts of academia could be. The Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism act of 2001, also known as, The Patriot Act (an acronym) was printed up in the middle of the night. Our representatives were told to pass it without reading it six weeks after September the eleventh. Hamilton would have demanded the reading of this document or most in full. The Patriot Act infringes the constitution and it infringes on our future. We either have a constitution or we don't and we should live by it, period. A classmate stated "We have, in my opinion, given up personal freedom in exchange for more security. My personal thoughts are that it is probably OK in the day and age we are living in, however we need to be ever vigilant that our civil rights are not trampled." I interpret these two statements as, I have given up my personal rights for more security, which is okay, but I need to make sure that our personal rights are not trampled. If one finds it okay, then there is no need to make sure our rights are not trampled on; it is inherit in the constitution. On the other half of the statement, if we do not want our rights trampled on, then it is not okay to lose any freedom for security. She didn’t respond to me on that one.

Tags: Obama, USA, PATRIOT, ACT, SECURITY

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Rosetteismyname (Centrist) - 12 months ago

Reply to mcnabb
That is what I meant by "they," the global elite. Both parties are bought and paid for, if … Show full comment

I don't agree with that...

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mcnabb (Independent) - 1 year ago

Reply to mcnabb
That is what I meant by "they," the global elite. Both parties are bought and paid for, if … Show full comment

The difference would be that the media would have been far more affectionate with a democratic administration making these laws, That is probably why GW was allowed to"steal" the election.

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mcnabb (Independent) - 1 year ago

Reply to Rosetteismyname
McNabb: I will eat that right up with a side of bologna and a topping of gullible... besides, the … Show full comment

That is what I meant by "they," the global elite. Both parties are bought and paid for, if Kerry or Gore would have been elected we would still have:

1.) Patriot Act
+ Renewal of
2.) Military Commissions Act
3.) Senate Bill 1959 (Passed congress - now in senate - thought sites like this could end up illegal)

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Rosetteismyname (Centrist) - 1 year ago

Reply to mcnabb
I think the idea that GW has or ever had a right wing administration is comical. He did run on conse … Show full comment

McNabb: I will eat that right up with a side of bologna and a topping of gullible...

besides, the question has merit and Bush said the loaded statement, "You are either with us or you are with the terrorist" [He has the power to veto]

Next, he has been seen saying on more than a few occassions to have said, "It would be a lot easier if it were a dictatorship"

No democrat has control over both parties...No republican has control over both parties... The elite have control over both parties... Where are the elite most when it comes to political affiliation? (don't look like a fool and state the wrong answer)

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mcnabb (Independent) - 1 year ago

Reply to Rosetteismyname
jcscuba, rewind, Okay, you use the term "constitutionalist in reference to the way the left w … Show full comment

I think the idea that GW has or ever had a right wing administration is comical. He did run on conservatism, but his policies have been straight out of the left field. Just another example of "their" control over both parties.

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Rosetteismyname (Centrist) - 1 year ago

Reply to jcscuba
Actually I looked up the definition of a Classical Liberal which you find yourself, I'd forgotten th … Show full comment

jcscuba, rewind,
Okay, you use the term "constitutionalist in reference to the way the left wing is attempting to bastardize the constitution"?????

3 things

1.) Patriot Act
+ Renewal of
2.) Military Commissions Act
3.) Senate Bill 1959 (Passed congress - now in senate - thought sites like this could end up illegal)

These occurred during the right wings administration,

Please respond to that?

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Rosetteismyname (Centrist) - 1 year ago

Reply to mcnabb
Did he set up camps and send all the people who believe in Islam there? That would be going that far … Show full comment

McNabb, well our definitions on going too far differ...they already set up camps in the past...what they did was send a bunch of Americans whether they were born here or not and denied them due process

Denying a citizen an inalienable right is taking it too far...

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SaintGenesius 1 year ago

Reply to mcnabb
War time Presidents have always behaved this way, it will blow over, I hope.

Give me my rights, or I'll get up and take them myself.

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jcscuba (Independent) - 1 year ago

Reply to scot
First, the measures in use do not yet, definitively work. They also do not just target terrorists ab … Show full comment

You are correct in you last line as well, I personally am mean enough to want to live and fight another day. You do make an excellent point. About them listening in, they have been doing it for years. I guess I don't worry about it because I don't do anything criminal. That being said my blog will probably be and is being monitored and I'm probably scheduled on a one way train to Siberia.

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scot 1 year ago

Reply to jcscuba
Any idea on how to stop it? Seriously, I just don't get the objection to using counter measures on t … Show full comment

First, the measures in use do not yet, definitively work. They also do not just target terrorists abroad or known activity in the US. They are written broadly and are continually misused, this is the big concern.

When government starts, it simply doesn't stop.

We will have to agree to disagree here.

"Give me liberty or Give me death"... I would rather not have to suffer in bondage to a government that grows in power against me. That is the essence behind "Give me liberty or Give me death".

And... just for the fun of philosophy and having nothing to do with my argument ... is not death the ultimate in liberty, an escape from all that which can destroy liberty? Just a thought to ponder.

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jcscuba (Independent) - 1 year ago

Reply to scot
My wife agrees with me. We both proudly believe our freedoms are greater, no matter what. Security a … Show full comment

Any idea on how to stop it? Seriously, I just don't get the objection to using counter measures on targets of interest. I love freedom probably as much as you, I don't believe that using techniques against terrorists that are actually proven helpful effect my freedom. It's kind of like "Give me liberty or Give me death" How much liberty can you and your family or an entire society if they are dead. I take the Jihad on their word. They plan to crush the west and the USA. They are doing a pretty good job of it and I think Bush putting the pedal to the metal and working with other intelligence groups around the world is helpful.

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scot 1 year ago

Reply to mcnabb
What leads you to believe we have a screwed up America and that it is previous generations that are … Show full comment

There is a lot more going on in America than globalization.

Also, Wilson was the no the beginning to globalization. That is simply laughable, and shows a complete misunderstanding of both economics and globalization.

Yes, Wilson was an eary internationlaist and a founding thinker behind the League of Nations, however this is not globalization. The UN is not globalization, they are only mildy connected between some politicians who claim this and people like you who simply do not understand.

Globalization exists free of international orders. It is people driven, economics driven based on trade and international cooperation via economic and consumer dependence. It is much bigger then the UN and the like. It began at the onset of global trade, far before Wilson and the UN or LoN. It accelerated based on technology and communication means. Globalization is not global governance, it is not internationalization and the loss of America, it is not what the far right and the far left claim to to be. It is merely the success of the market. A global economic system that has served the international consumer base. Globalization is an economic positive.

I agree, past war time presidents made grave errors as well, but such historical precedent has allowed current decisions to be made and hardly questioned, this is bad for the future. Just because Bush's actions were not as extreme or so forth does not make them right, ethical or so forth. Ones past mistake does not validate another persons mistake today.

Past generations began to make mistakes, failed to question their government, failed to elect leaders who could sustain America and what we constitutionally stood for. And we are paying for it today, as our system and essence melts away under unrestrained government.

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mcnabb (Independent) - 1 year ago

Reply to scot
You are right, you and your generation have forgotten a lot, you have given us a tragic government, … Show full comment

What leads you to believe we have a screwed up America and that it is previous generations that are responsible. You should be very happy with the country right now considering that you are all for globalization. If anything is screwed up here it starts with the marxist ideology that is driving the new world order and the American left's insistence that we go along with it.

You are completely ignoring the historical actions of war presidents. I know you know all about it. Bush and his tactics are mild compared to Lincoln, FDR, Truman, and you know it. Woodrow Wilson made it a crimeto use "disloyal, profane, scurrilous, or abusive language" about the United States government, flag, or armed forces during war. And he's the guy that started your beloved globalization process. The entire democrat party and you and me would be in jail for sedition under previous administrations, so demonize Bush and Scuba's generation if it makes you feel better, but its not their fault(s).

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scot 1 year ago

Reply to jcscuba
Yea tell that to you wife and kids someday. What are you willing to fight for? Security is not wort … Show full comment

You are right, you and your generation have forgotten a lot, you have given us a tragic government, a screwed up America and a mess to deal with. It is your faults we are loosing our liberties, your faults we are where and what we are.

Thanks a lot.

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scot 1 year ago

Reply to scot
I am not sure what your final ramblings were in reference to here... so I will ignore them. On t … Show full comment

Spelling correction:

'Which is life, you can be what you want, just don't pretend to be something else.;

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scot 1 year ago

Reply to jcscuba
Actually I looked up the definition of a Classical Liberal which you find yourself, I'd forgotten th … Show full comment

Also, John Lock, Adam Smith, so on... just a slim portion of Classical Liberalism.

Look into F. A. Hayek, Richard Cobden, Baron de Montesquieu, and de Tocqueville for some more good reads.

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scot 1 year ago

Reply to jcscuba
Actually I looked up the definition of a Classical Liberal which you find yourself, I'd forgotten th … Show full comment

I am not sure what your final ramblings were in reference to here... so I will ignore them.

On to your so-called constitutionalism views - advocating for domestic spying, loss of rights among Americans and their interactions with individuals and groups, your hatred of habeas corpus, and your distaste for equality under the law - are all examples I have seen through your postings that are certainly not constitutionalist.

They are however neo-conservative. Which is wife, you can be what you want, just don't pretend to be something else.

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scot 1 year ago

Reply to jcscuba
Yea tell that to you wife and kids someday. What are you willing to fight for? Security is not wort … Show full comment

My wife agrees with me. We both proudly believe our freedoms are greater, no matter what. Security and bowing to the government under an allusion of security is simply not worth it.

Our rights and freedoms are paramount. We begin to slowly give them away and they will eventually be non-existent, this is the trend of governance. It is history, it is fact.

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jcscuba (Independent) - 1 year ago

Reply to scot
I agree. The Patriot act does not stop terrorism, it does trample on liberties and denies us our Con … Show full comment

Yea tell that to you wife and kids someday. What are you willing to fight for? Security is not worth the sacrifice,what a load of crap, get your head out of the books and hit the street kid. Many people of my era have forgotten more than you have learned.

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jcscuba (Independent) - 1 year ago

Reply to scot
How can you call yourself a Constitutionalist when you continually advocate for polices and laws tha … Show full comment

Actually I looked up the definition of a Classical Liberal which you find yourself, I'd forgotten the term, and guess what I'm a Classical Milton Freidman was the underpinnings of my first beginnings of understanding economics. I wonder how many people today remember the meaning of Classical Liberal. Yep John Lock, Adam Smith, the invisible hand, I buy all that stuff. I used the term "Constitutionalist" more in reference to the way the left wing is attempting to bastardize the constitution, you know like making it a living breathing organ. I new I wasn't a liberal, or a strict conservative, I'm a fiscal conservative which I guess by definition a Classical Liberal is, so once again the student teaches the master. I would ask to to list how I continue advocate for laws and policies that are against constitutional rights. When it comes to towel head my friend they do not deserve any constitutional rights. Now please refrain from contacting me any further, we are foe. You have been given your chance, you blew it when you didn't give me your take on the big show down on `12-5 with the Supreme Court? Was that a bigger collaboration on a hoax by more people than AlWhore's slide show on Global doom?

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scot 1 year ago

Reply to Rosetteismyname
Shredding the constitution to me isn't about left or right or middle - It is about people. As far as … Show full comment

Ahhh 'V'... I love V.

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scot 1 year ago

Reply to jcscuba
Rose and Scott: I have no trouble with the Government listening in to calls coming from countries wi … Show full comment

How can you call yourself a Constitutionalist when you continually advocate for polices and laws that are outright against the basic premise of constitutional rights?

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bco2rgr (Republican) - 1 year ago

Wow bust out the tinfoil hats!

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Rosetteismyname (Centrist) - 1 year ago

Reply to mcnabb
Are you calling me a communist? I hate communism. Thats like killing my dog and peeing in my cheerio … Show full comment

all right, all right

Communism aside - breakfast aside - household pets aside

while we are at it, let's just put the truth aside too and save this debate for another forum in which we can climb back up on to that box that something on it called soap and have fun on that news story/blog/video/...

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mcnabb (Independent) - 1 year ago

Reply to Rosetteismyname
now you are pulling context into quantity... Fact is context of what is stated is that in the pas … Show full comment

Are you calling me a communist? I hate communism. Thats like killing my dog and peeing in my cheerios, not very cool.

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